Can recipes be racist? Is cultural appropriation of food a thing?

As a Bon Appetit fan, I've been following the the forced resignation of its creepy Editor-in-Chief, Adam Rapoport, after a photo of his Halloween cosplay as a Hispanic street tough appeared. Massive pay disparities between white staffers and people of color also were uncovered and are reportedly being addressed. Yesterday, the magazine published a statement of intent to revise and delete recipes and articles that were insufficiently respectful of ethnic cuisine or failed to acknowledge the recipe's ethnic origins or used white experts on a country's cooking in place of those with ethnic ties. I'm struggling with this. I can understand the importance of locating people of color as experts and of educating an audience on how a take on a particular dish varies from the original. What I don't understand is branding interpretations and simplifications of an ethnic dish as disrespectful and inherently inferior to an ethnic dish that may have 10 more steps and ingredients that are next to impossible to find. I don't see what's wrong with an adaptation of pho or curry or tagine, particularly if it tastes delicious. I realize this is called "columbusing" and "applying a white gaze" to ethnic food but I see nothing wrong with this. When I read that BA's recipes are being contextualized, I think my days there are numbered. You?

[quote] I'm struggling with this.

I hope you find strength to prevail in your struggle

Anyone who gets their panties in a wad over this can fuck off. I say, cook away to your heart and stomach's content! Bon appetite!

Portland Burrito Cart Closes After Owners Are Accused Of Cultural Appropriation

Seriously, OP? Look what's happening around you. EVERYTHING is racist. Don't try to find logic in it.

This is so stupid. So, if you're Asian, you can only cook Asian food, and not every kind of food. You have to cook your own ethnic food and nothing else. Japanese people, no Szechuan chicken for you.

Ludicrous PC policing. If you view the world through their lens, everything is offensive. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery—especially with food.

R4, no, the problem isn't racism, it's attempting to take credit for another culture's food. Profiting off another person's methods which is what they did.

And R3 and his agenda left out the actual offensive part. Did you actually even READ what you posted?

"Critics say the women bragged about stealing recipes while in Mexico."

“They wouldn’t tell us too much about technique, but we were peeking into the windows of every kitchen, totally fascinated by how easy they made it look,” Connelly said. “We learned quickly it isn’t quite that easy.” - So they took it upon themselves to spy on these people and took their ideas without permission.

“The problem, of course, is that it’s unclear whether the Mexican women who handed over their recipes ever got anything in return,” King wrote in the piece that also outlined how others had begun to accuse the women of cultural appropriation. “And now those same recipes are being sold as a delicacy in Portland.”

This is no different than a fashion designer stealing someone's creations and profiting off of those ideas. How do you not see that?

I have a problem when a wealthy designer or large company--say, Ivanka--rips off an indie but I have no problem at all with a mass marketer ripping off Stella McCartney or Victoria Beckham since their idiotic prices cover whatever losses they're likely to incur. Also, almost nothing in fashion is original and only fabric designs can be copyrighted for that reason. I don't think your analogy is apt, R7.

I think the Portland cart would have been okay if the recipes weren't stolen and the Mexican women who originated them were fairly compensated. Those two women sound like asses.

R7/R8

Come on. Small cafes/restaurants start all the time exactly like this. All the time. Your real issue is that they’re white. You aren’t the arbiters of who can make different types of food. I have seen many restaurants where the owners are a different ethnicity from the food they’re making. Sometimes the food is great, sometimes it’s awful.

Get over yourselves.

[quote] it's attempting to take credit for another culture's food

The seeds of insanity.

I guess I am no longer allowed to boil noodles. It's appropriation of Chinese culture.

I hang out in some food writer forums. The cultural policing has gotten pretty out of controls. Why are Millennial white women such scolds? They just seem so miserable. I mean food should be fun. And shared.

I have drawn the conclusion that my fellow citizens have absolutely lost their minds. This entire conversation is completely America-centric, and shows how America is devolving into chaos. Cultural appropriation needs to be universally applied across all cultures to test its validity as an idea. What's good for one culture is good for another, no? Is the Japanese pizza-chef in Tokyo guilty of cultural appropriation? Should only Italians make Italian food throughout the world or does this rule only apply to Americans? And let's be honest; we're only really talking about white Americans.

[quote] Why are Millennial white women such scolds?

I'm beginning to think we have created a generation of White people, who actually hate their own race. I don't agree with "White Pride" but neither do I agree with "White Self-Hate."

Fuck cultural appropriation sideways. No such thing.

[quote] I'm beginning to think we have created a generation of White people, who actually hate their own race.

College have pushed white guilt indoctrination for decades.

Meanwhile .....

I don't care who cooks it if they'll let me lick the spoon

R13, and how far back do we go? Italians use a lot of tomato in their cooking, but tomatoes aren't native to Italy. And of course pasta was born out of noodles from the East. Yet, using non native ingredients and (ugh) "appropriating" others' dishes has resulted in some really amazing cuisine beloved the world over.

I've really only started to cook for myself in the last couple of years, and what I've discovered with surprise is that I love the whole process of it. There's something so satisfying about creating your own dishes, thinking about what works and what doesn't, and getting inspiration from others to make stuff you love. Plus due to allergies I have to mix and match things a lot. There's no way I would be able to avoid "appropriating" the cuisine of others, I wouldn't be left with much tasty to eat for a start! This will only hurt Bon Appetit in the long run, the everyday person is still going to cook how they wish.

Bon Appetit should be embarrassed. They should stick to cooking and baking and leave the intellectual matters to someone else to sort out.

What is wrong with going to a country and getting ideas and techniques from the native population? How many American chefs and food authors have done just that on trips to France and Italy. R7, why does that not bother you?

[quote] Come on. Small cafes/restaurants start all the time exactly like this. All the time. Your real issue is that they’re white.

Life is so very very hard for whites in this country that is 70+ percent white; where whites run everything and own everything.

[quote] I'm beginning to think we have created a generation of White people, who actually hate their own race. I don't agree with "White Pride" but neither do I agree with "White Self-Hate."

This never happened. Americans are much too selfish and self centered for that. Your comments are nonsense but you probably already knew that.

[quote]The seeds of insanity.

Except it isn't. Israel is constantly trying to claim things like hummus and falafel as "Israeli" when it's food that predates their very existence.

[quote] I don't agree with "White Pride" but neither do I agree with "White Self-Hate."

No one is telling your stupid ass you can't celebrate being Irish or Norwegian or Scottish. The "white" nonsense is why we're even in this mess. Confederate flags and statues perpetuate that nonsense.

And BTW, I would suggest a lot of you white gays get over yourselves because anyone who actually believes in that "white pride" nonsense will never see homosexuality as a normal part of any society they consider a utopia.

[quote] What I don't understand is branding interpretations and simplifications of an ethnic dish as disrespectful and inherently inferior to an ethnic dish that may have 10 more steps and ingredients that are next to impossible to find. I don't see what's wrong with an adaptation of pho or curry or tagine, particularly if it tastes delicious. I realize this is called "columbusing" and "applying a white gaze" to ethnic food but I see nothing wrong with this. When I read that BA's recipes are being contextualized, I think my days there are numbered. You?

This is not about what’s right or wrong. Condé Nast and the white decision makers at Bon Appetit don’t care about right or wrong. They care about selling magazines. This is strictly about rehabilitating their image and selling magazines.

Eat and cook whatever the fucking hell you want, you twit.

[quote] Israel is constantly trying to claim things like hummus and falafel as "Israeli" when it's food that predates their very existence.

What restaurant has ever been harassed out of business for ever serving non-Israeli falafel ?

Falafel is revolting. Who'd want to claim it?

R25 With ridiculous articles like this, they might just lose readers.

From the Wikipedia article on the topic (full article is linked below):

'The concept of cultural appropriation has been heavily criticized. Critics note that the concept is often misunderstood or misapplied by the general public, and that charges of "cultural appropriation" are at times misapplied to situations such as eating food from a variety of cultures or simply learning about different cultures."

In the cooking world it is common to "borrow" ideas, recipes, and techniques. How often do you see a recipe like, "... a la Julia Child" or "Martha Stewart's..." online and in cookbooks? Making tortillas and burritos is NOT cultural appropriation. Going to Mexico and spying on cooks who say they don't wish to share their recipes and techniques with you, and then profiting from what you have taken expressly against their wishes, IS cultural appropriation. It is the uneven distribution of power, the assumed right to take what you wish from others that is the root of the problem.

Bon Appetit, in their efforts to "re-contextualize" recipes, run the very real risk of using cultural stereotypes, and being insensitive toward other cultures whose versions of a dish might not be fairly represented. It's already been pointed out in this thread that some dishes like falafel (and baklava, hummus, rice pudding, and... ) are claimed by many cultures and cuisines. Whose version is the "right" one? Whose version gets to be printed? To me, that editorial task is far more likely to risk cultural appropriation than to repair it.

I kinda understand the criticism and thought about it last year when a ramen restaurant opened in my neighborhood. Now ramen is still pretty new in my country and it is outrageously expensive. The ramen restaurant claims to offer the „authentic ramen experience“ - however, there are no Japanese cooks in the kitchen, only white guys who went to Japan for 2 weeks and apparently learned everything they needed to know.

Nothing wrong with that, but why advertise it as the real deal when it is clearly not? That pissed off a lot of my Japanese colleagues and I do understand why.

The writer of the article is Filipino and uses an Americanized halo-halo as his exhibit A.

Then someone needs to cancel Jollibee because they have grossly appropriated American and Italian cooking traditions. As an southern Italian-American, I am deeply triggered.

The extreme left would love everyone to be genderless, control who they fuck (making sure the cis to transgender quota is 50/50), make sure they never experience other cultures and no one should ever be offended, unless they are white and they will be reminded how awful they are everyday.

A lot of food writers who discover some ingredient - dried turmeric! - misuse and overuse it. They don't have the background of cooking with it and don't respect the integrity of when and how it is best used in food. That's how you get that shit published in the New York Times food section.

"As an southern Italian-American, I am deeply triggered."

Before you impress us with your superior take on racism, maybe check on your grammar.

Or double down on stupidity.

Obviously you've made your choice.

The burrito women didn’t try to “take credit:” They offered the story of how they learned recipes.

And to the poster above who put the designs and or Stella McCartney and Victoria Beckham in the same category...please do some research. McCartney is actually talented and is one of few remaining designers whose products aren’t made in Chinese sweatshops.

It’s also racist if you imply a certain cuisine isn’t healthy.

Suggesting that a person of a particular ethnic background by definition can cook a particular dish better than another person of a different ethnic background is absurd.

Cooking skill and authenticity, as defined as using traditional methods and recipes, is what matters, not the background of the person cooking it.

The only argument that I could even remotely possibly buy is that someone's palate might reflecting upbringing, so you might end up with a subtly different flavor. But, that's going to be true of any two cooks, irrespective of background - ask any two italian grandmas arguing about who's the better cook.

[quote]But, that's going to be true of any two cooks, irrespective of background - ask any two italian grandmas arguing about who's the better cook.

Or "sauce" v. "gravy."

[quote] Going to Mexico and spying on cooks who say they don't wish to share their recipes and techniques with you, and then profiting from what you have taken expressly against their wishes, IS cultural appropriation

And just as those Mexican cooks were on the cusp of launching their own chain of restaurants in the U.S. Shame on those women! 🙄

With the Bon Appetit situation, what happened is that a Puerto Rican food writer had submitted an idea to the magazine, was rudely told that her recipe wasn't "now" enough, then a very similar recipe showed up with Molly Baz, a blonde white lady, making it.

BA has improved over the years but they still have some rough spots when it comes to recipes that don't originate in the U.S.

That said, one of the most ridiculous things I ever heard was Andy Baraghani complaining in one of the lockdown videos that Brad Leone shouldn't have been allowed to use sumac in his recipes because "it's not HIS spice to use, anyway." Are we really going to start complaining when a white guy uses an East Asian spice? Especially when it's also grown in North America?

It's pretty simple. Cooking for people is caring and creative, and it encourages togetherness and understanding of other cultures. Eating different types of food is one of life's greatest pleasures.

Therefore, consider the whole enterprise CANCELLED.

May your food turn to dust in your mouth, and may you put away your saucepan and never cook again. Now eat your Wonder bread and think about what you've done, evil scum.

Rappaport’s firing was a LONG time coming, and he’s not the only one. What’s left of the NY magazine industry is filled with entitled male editors that need to go.

So many triggered racists and incels on this thread. Can’t wait until the election and you’re all swept away and you finally get the fuck out of here.

How did I forget about The Racist Sandwich??!

[quote]Is cultural appropriation of food a thing?

Yes, and it is codified in EU law and some other international laws. Here you may read about the very well established system of protecting regional cuisines in various EU states. To give a well-known example, you may not use the term Champagne for your sparkling wine unless the wine comes from that region.

Biopiracy is the practice of stealing local and indigenous food knowledge for profit, and tentative legal frameworks have been negotiated to prevent it in the last couple of decades.

No one “claims” falafel. Anyone with a modicum if intelligence or experience knows it’s a middle eastern food part of many countries’ cuisines including Greece, Israel, Jordan, etc

You might want to learn some history too

R46 Those EU designations has absolutely nothing to do with recipes but with products and ingredients.

I

[quote]Biopiracy is the practice of stealing local and indigenous food knowledge for profit, and tentative legal frameworks have been negotiated to prevent it in the last couple of decades.

Absurd.

"Yes, and it is codified in EU law and some other international laws."

R46, geographical indication and protected names of origin are a completely different thing and they're about the use of specific names of very specific products that almost literally are named after geographical areas and/or have a centuries-old tradition. Those foods/drinks can still be made but not use that geographical or traditional name (e.g. sherry, feta). This is primarily a trade thing so a valued product is not damaged through bastardisation.

It's nothing to do with the stupid American concept of "cultural appropriation" and no one on EU food programmes or in restaurants in the EU is forced to give explanations as to why they're cooking a particular recipe.

That is true, R48, thanks for the correction. But it's more the concept of ownership of food culture that I was addressing. Some recipes are so well established that they are part of global food culture, but where cuisines form a vital part of a local economy, there is a clear case for grievance in my opinion. The instance where the Portland restaurant was accused of stealing recipes is a clear case of piracy, in my opinion, even if it might not be legally actionable.

Mi piace che ho imparato a cucinare dai libri di Marcella Hazan e Giuliano Bugialli, e non dalla vicina di casa di mia nonna. I suoi nipoti possono farmi causa.

Apologies for redundant redundancies in my post, I blame lack of sleep.

I just had hummus for breakfast and I’m not from the Middle East. Whatever will become of me !

R37 looks like Lucky Lee's closed down back in Nov 2019, about 7 months after the NYT article. The extreme PC mob assailed the yelp page, as they are wont to do, with negative ratings and declarations of joy at the owners losing their business.

But remember, the PC mob are the good guys!

Well, you're just going to have to report to food jail, r55, where r52 is head jailer. He will send your DNA to 23andme.com ASAP to find out exactly which foods you are allowed to consume. Until your results come back, it's PBJ three times a day.

I'm not interesting in enforcing anything, R57. Not my grievance.

R56 That’s too bad...I wanted to try it.

[quote] you may not use the term Champagne for your sparkling wine unless the wine comes from that region.

That's purely BRANDING. Grapes grow in many places and any difference in the quality of the same product produced elsewhere is for the consumer to decide.

If you've ever lived in Portland, or visited for any length of time, you'd know the burrito cart shit is nonsense. The town is very white, and there are so many carts and restaurants that are the same damn story. Example: Pok Pok is owned by a very white man, who sells Northern Thai cuisine. Where was the outrage? There were taco places opened all over the city by a very fat white guy, and he admittedly got the recipes from street taco sellers in Mexico, plus tequila he imported himself. No outrage, just praise.

"it's attempting to take credit for another culture's food. Profiting off another person's methods which is what they did."

That is ludicrous. Please tell me what ethnicity wheat and eggs are. There hasn't been a community, society or culture since the dawn of civilization that haven't shared, borrowed, exchanged or interpolated recipes with other. It not only promoted tolerated and understanding but also insured SURVIVAL. For anyone to claim that THEIR dish is the one and only original authentic one is just incredibly ignorant.

[quote]This is no different than a fashion designer stealing someone's creations and profiting off of those ideas. How do you not see that?

Learning and using commonly held techniques known by many that apply to the usual activities of daily life is nothing - NOTHING - like stealing an individual's unique artistic product.

How do you not see that? It's because you are steeped in too much theory while being without apparent skills for logic or critical thinking. Go get some help in those areas and try again.

What I gather is that if white people contemplate presenting or writing about a dish historically linked to people of color, they should acknowledge the dish's origins, not present it as authentic, not adulterate the dish by oversimplifying it for a white audience, not use a key ingredient in other dishes and stand down until someone of the correct ethnicity presents it and is credited with it.

You don't build a broad audience for a region's cuisine (as opposed to particular EU products) if you insist on acting as a gatekeeper and traffic cop. Tell me that the family that owns the Sriracha family is offended when their sauce is used in a wide range of dishes. I'm guessing not.

[quote] You don't build a broad audience for a region's cuisine (as opposed to particular EU products) if you insist on acting as a gatekeeper and traffic cop.

First of all, there is no obligation to build a broad audience for a region's cuisine. Second, a food editor is by necessity a gate keeper. Someone has to decide what is being presented. A magazine has a limited number of pates. A YouTube video has a limited amount of time. You can do your own independent study for a limitless amount of time, but no publication can do the same. It's not possible. If there is to be publication, there must also be some curation and editing involved.

If the writer and the editor feels that some translation and adaptation is in order, that's fine, too. If a recipe is actually part of a culture, then it has long since been edited, translated, and adapted, again and again and again as it falls into the hands and the kitchen of each successive cook who worked that recipe and made it part of the culture. It's absurd to think there is anything about cooking that does not bend to the circumstances of the moment. How can anyone be so naive as to think otherwise?

Actually, youtube videos do not have a limited amount of time unless someone pulls them. They may have a limited amount of time to make a splash when introduced on social media but that's another matter. Food editors have a symbiotic relationship with their audience, which in the case of Bon Appetite, is a mass audience with a limited amount of time to spend cooking and shopping for ingredients. That's where the obligation to build enthusiasm for a region's cuisine comes in. If the food writers don't make the recipes accessible, it's a one-off. It's one thing to present a dish a particular way, it's quite another to say there is one true way to eat it and all others are disrespectful. That's gatekeeping.

The BA thing is stupid. 90% of their audience is upper middle class and wannabe upper middle class white women. Of course their recipes will be catered to that demographic. They’re a BUSINESS, they want to keep their subscriber base happy. Why does every single thing have to be inclusive now?

There has been a warning placed on Reddit regarding the recent issues that occurred at BA. The warning states that the continued release of information about BA and tangential topics is being driven by Russian bots to cause division in the country.

That doesn't surprise me, R68. When people start arguing very passionately en masse about something ridiculous, I find that scenario believable.

There'a a blow-up on twitter about an NYT business piece analyzing the Thai fruit industry, which exports throughout Asia, and discussing the impediments to exporting the fruits--durian, mangosteens, rambutans, langsats, jackfruit, dragon fruit, salak--in larger quantity to the United States. The problem is that some species of fruit have thorny shells that do not peel easily and their consistency, some of which is heavily seeded, is challenging to western cooks. This is not a culinary piece but the critics are responding as if it is and are angry that the assignment did not go to a Thai food writer instead of an Asian NYT bureau chief. The objections center around the some of the fruits being described hyperbolically--one spiked fruit is likened to a coronavirus--or as smelly. I agree that the article would have been better if it incorporated either trade or culinary experts on the possibility of a wider market for this fruit.

But the people with pitchforks are angry because it wasn't written by someone who is Thai and the fact that it's not a piece on how to cook with exotic fruit is lost on them. They think the descriptions of the fruit are disrespectful and insulting to Thais.

I think it's dangerous to say only X people can write about X because that can lead to the conclusion that all X can write about is X.

I also think it's dangerous to assume that distaste for a particular ingredient is insulting to a culture.

R70 I can't stand kimchi, the smell when eating it and the smell emanating afterwards. Tried it more than once and found it disgusting. I was also good friends with a Korean exchange student back in high school and she reeked of kimchi after eating it either before school or with lunch. Used to think that had something to do with my dislike of kimchi, but now I think it's more because of the taste and smell when eating it. I love all other Korean food but not kimchi. I happened to say this during a group conversation a few years back when we were talking about most hated foods. This Korean-American woman then straight up accused me of being racist based solely on my hatred of kimchi.

R71, what did you do when disliking one specific Korean food got you branded as racist? I would have probably rolled my eyes or laughed, but my attitude has a way of causing me problems.

Fun fact: I stayed with some Korean-American friends for a little while. They had bought some kimchi because the in-laws from the old country were coming over and they apologized to me that they were going to be serving it. I told them I adore kim chi. They told me to eat up, because they hate it!

[quote]The objections center around the some of the fruits being described hyperbolically--one spiked fruit is likened to a coronavirus

Yeah, that's a problem, though. Describing an Asian fruit as looking like the coronavirus is really ill-advised. I agree that the rest of the fallout seems excessive but that right there should have been caught by an editor.

[quote]or as smelly.

Lemme guess, durian? It is smelly. It's not racist to say so, because it's stink-ay to everyone, all the time.

[quote]Going to Mexico and spying on cooks who say they don't wish to share their recipes and techniques with you, and then profiting from what you have taken expressly against their wishes, IS cultural appropriation

Exhausting.

That's not "cultural appropriation."

That's just plain run-of-the-mill shitty behavior.

[quote]Yeah, that's a problem, though. Describing an Asian fruit as looking like the coronavirus is really ill-advised.

What is wrong with describing the look of a fruit as one sees it?

R3, What the hell. I’m half Mexican and I didn’t know Mexicans were into the cultural appropriation thing.

R76, stop calling yourself "half Mexican." Admit that the racist non-Mexican half of yourself colonized and occupied the Mexican half and culturally appropriated its proud Mexican DNA.

I do hate to read Indian or Thai recipes modified by whites people. The seasoning is always way off.

For your consideration. "Deepa's Secrets" is an Indian cookbook written by a successful Indian business woman in which she deconstructs traditional Indian recipes and reconfigures them in low carb versions for modern needs.

So someone tell me what's wrong with it.

(r78) try chinese food modified by Indian people, there's no resemblance to the original dish. That's because people modify dishes for their palates. Is it really that difficult to understand? There are plenty of Indian and Thai recipes online, written by Indians and Thais, no reason to go with a random persons version.

[quote]Admit that the racist non-Mexican half of yourself colonized and occupied the Mexican half and culturally appropriated its proud Mexican DNA.

And why don't YOU admit and recognize that half of that half Mexican half is of Indigenous heritage and therefore was occupied and oppressed by the European half of that Mexican half!

Those who cry cultural appropriation or racism in food obviously have very little experience with traveling to non-English speaking countries. They probably also don’t have friends from different cultures.

As an off note, I love stories about people who were raised in another culture from which they were born. Food is often featured prominently as part of their cultural ties. Like this Korean adoptee who came to the US as a child along with his siblings. Dumped by adopted and foster families until finding some stability from his Mexican grandma who raised him after finding out her son (foster dad) beat the kid. The Korean guy identifies as Chicano. He got deported to South Korea after prison even though he didn’t speak Korean, having left as a young child years earlier. What does he do after arriving there? Open up a Mexican restaurant.

^^^YT profile of Christian for those interested

[quote]Those who cry cultural appropriation or racism in food obviously have very little experience with traveling to non-English speaking countries. They probably also don’t have friends from different cultures.

R82 Just imagine how tied in knots this guy must make them!:

(He gave a speech at a conference I attended a few years ago. Amazing back story and very inspirational!)

[quote]I realize this is called "columbusing" and "applying a white gaze" to ethnic food but I see nothing wrong with this

Translation: I realize this is racist but I am a racist.

There is no one fixed way to prepare any recipe. Every cook adapts and adjusts for personal taste. Every recipe bends to the locally available ingredients. As available preparation methods or cooking methods change, so does the recipe. Finished dishes reflect local tastes for sweetness, saltiness, heat.

It's just stone cold stupid to think that any of these things are somehow sacrosanct. It's just food. People prepare it they way they like it. Always. Everywhere. And that's a great way for it to be.

As I've said before, it's going to be a bland and boring future if no cultures can't cross pollinate.

R77 has stated her boundaries

R82, I think you have hit the nail on the head with the comment: "They probably also don’t have friends from different cultures." From what I've observed, people like this simply want to speak for everyone else, like they have some kind of white saviour complex. The funniest part is when the people from the culture they are speaking over say: "Actually, we don't have a problem with this." and get promptly dismissed by the person who is ostensibly championing them. I saw one girl even say: "It's so sad they don't understand what a problem it is they are facing."

It would blow their minds to meet people from multicultural families. My best friend is an Italian, whose family is from North Africa and their food reflects that. They're constantly mixing things up too, based on what ingredients are available and quite frankly, what is easier to prepare, and what tastes best. What to do, what to do? These angry people surely wouldn't be able to just sit and enjoy that food, which is sad.

It also confuses me how angry I saw one writer get because people are now using turmeric in their food. Is this really worth getting upset over? Plus, my family, at least, have cooked with turmeric since I was little, and we're pretty white. It's hardly a "new fad".

Food is the great uniter among people. It's a shame they can't see that.

You don't see Chinese yelling. "You've appropriated our tea and noodles!" to the world. BTW, did you know that the original ketchup was a facsimile of fish/soy sauce from China? It was an expensive sauce for the 18th century Brits, so they tried to make it themselves.

"I realize this is called "columbusing" and "applying a white gaze" to ethnic food but I see nothing wrong with this" Translation: I realize this is racist but I am a racist.

Calling someone a racist is a non-argument. I did some more reading and I think I understand "columbusing" better and I see why it's offensive. Essentially, it occurs when a white person purports to be an authority on an ethnic cuisine, with little basis in fact. It's more problematic when it's applied to Rick Bayless, who has popularized regional Mexican cuisine with his PBS series and is a bonafide expert. Is he usurping a space that rightfully belongs to Mexican chefs or has he created a mass audience for all types of Mexican food from which a new generation of Mexican chefs has benefited? Probably a little of both although Bayless has mentored many Mexican chefs.

Something that helped me understand the idea of a white gaze is the Bon Appetit headline: Pho is the new ramen. What's obnoxious is the idea that there's only room for one trendy ethnic food at a time and all asian foods are roughly equivalent.

I get that. Here's what I don't get: Talking about "white food" as if it's monolithic. Attacking as racist any article that disparages an ethnic dish or foodstuff. Beating up on Chris Morocco when he gagged after tasting stewed chitterlings with a blindfold on. Beating up on Chris Morocco for offering a dessert inspired by HaloHalo instead of the original, which calls for jackfruit, red sweetened mung beans, ube, saba, plantains and other ingredients that are not easy for me to locate and, frankly, don't sound that appetizing. Maybe in time they will but the bastardized version might be a better first step for me and lots of other people, including people of color.

I am also sick of hearing about how first- and second-generation chefs and food writers were ridiculed in grammar school for bringing in smelly, ethnic food for their school lunches and not peanut butter sandwiches. Undoubtedly that was painful but with maturity should come a recognition that almost everyone has a horrible time in grammar school--the fat kids, the learning-disabled kids, the LGBT kids, the poor kids, the kids who are lousy at athletics, the Jewish and Muslim kids during Christmas time, the children whose parents were going through a horrible divorce, and so on. To brandish this as an adult as a symbol of the othering you received as a kid and for which you now demand payback, that's sour grapes and not at all palatable. t

I’ll bet most people who complain about stealing others’ cuisine to satisfy white American tastebuds use chopsticks when they go to restaurants where they serve food from countries/cultures wherein chopsticks are the tools used.

Racist, culture thieves! If you’re American you use a knife and fork! Using chopsticks is the height of cultural appropriation. Yes, it is, at least if you want to follow this idiotic woke diatribe to its logical conclusion. (Cue the hypocrite: “No, I use chopsticks to honor the culture.”)

Stop kowtowing to the politically correct scolds. If they call you a racist, just stare at them and say, "And?" Stop giving away your power by fearing their reaction, people!! C'mon, grow some balls!!! Our forefathers stared death in the face for eons and yet we are so terrified of being excluded from a group of far left losers. If they are THIS insane now, they will only become even more insane with time. A bully is never satisfied with easy prey. Their demands will get more and more extreme until they hit a wall, but the problem is that by then, that wall may not be strong enough to push them back. Do you understand? In other words: this is going to get a lot if we don't push back NOW!

IMO, The issue is that, maybe, BA & other mags like it, insist on strict adherence when publishing French or other kinds of western European recipes. Then, when it comes to “ethnic” recipes, play fast & loose, using all kinds of substitutions for ingredients.

[quote] That's purely BRANDING. Grapes grow in many places and any difference in the quality of the same product produced elsewhere is for the consumer to decide.

Use of the word “Champagne” on a label is more than branding, it’s a regulation. You can’t produce sparkling wine from California grapes then label it Champagne.

R94, but - and let's face it - the woke army is never bothered about the "cultural appropriation" of French or Italian or other European food. It's only "cultural appropriation" if it's non-western stuff. In fact, the "cultural appropriation" of European things is now called "inclusion" and "diversity" and it's basically dictated.

When it cones to cuisine, I think cultural appropriation is a good thing. That's how a lot of the national cuisines in once-colonized countries were formed. By mixing influences from native cultures, the colonizers', and those with whom they traded, boom a unique cuisine with a unique character in terms of flavor, techniques, and ingredients were born.

Notwithstanding this, preservation of cuisines is also soemthing that should be undertaken.

Also, if a culture is to not evolve either by the people's ingenuity or by incorporating and indigenizing external influences, then it's as good as dead.

R96, IMO, there’s simply more reverence and respect paid to French and Italian cooking traditions. In general.

was born* (lol, I need to take a second look at the stuff I write)

Baloney, r99. Or, pizza or pasta or have a baguette. French fries, even.

The point is, French restaurants in America are not considered an outrage and you don't have to be French to cook French food.

This reminds me of a recent post on the Am I The Asshole subreddit:

I'm friends with this vegan girl on Facebook. We were friends in our high school days but we've mostly lost touch. She was only vegetarian back when I knew her but made the switch to vegan a while back. Recently, she posted a photo of jambalaya that she made. I commented "Jambalaya? I thought you were vegan". She said "I still am, I used veggie broth instead of chicken stock, vegan sausage, vegan chick'n, and I even managed to find vegan shrimp!" I decided to send her a private message.

I told her that while she might not have thought she did anything wrong, these types of recipes are not meant for white people to modify to suit their white palates. This is someone else's culture and it's just not right to try to change it to try to make it "better" or whatever. White people have been doing that kind of shit for years and it's not cool.

She got extremely offended and told me that she didn't modify it to suit her palate, she modified it to suit her dietary restrictions and otherwise followed the recipe exactly. I pointed out that her veganism is a self-imposed dietary restriction. If she had allergies it would be different, but it's not like she can't eat meat and dairy and whatnot, it's that she chooses not to eat those things. She told me she was done with the conversation and to mind my own business. Then she blocked me.

Am I really the asshole here? Or is she just acting this way because no one likes to be called out?

"It's just stone cold stupid to think that any of these things are somehow sacrosanct. It's just food.“

No disrespect but this is a very American way of thinking about food and it is not the case in other parts of the world.

It is not just food, it is part of the culture, of family, traditions passed down from generation to generation. For immigrant communities food is often the link to the home countries and part of their cultural identities, thus they tend to be more protective of the cooking style. I know I am.

You can be as protective as you want in your own home r103 and cook just as your grandmother did and your grandmother before her, but that doesn't give you the right to say no one else can cook a particular dish or serve it in a restaurant.

I'm pretty sure if you went to the homes of other immigrant families from your ethnic community for dinner, you'd find their family traditions prepare the same dishes differently from yours.

R93, one of my favourite pushbacks I saw the other day was someone who was getting scolded for using sage, and they responded with:

"Until you claimed there was a rule, I knew nothing of this. No. I'm not going to stop practicing MY family's culture of using sage (which can be traced back many thousands of years). I'm disrespecting no one, nor do I intend to.

"You're awfully bossy, Bella."

The only people who believe in this appropriation shit are people who can't cook. LEARNING a recipe by watching someone prepare something is one of the ways we learn how to prepare a dish ourselves.

[quote] I told her that while she might not have thought she did anything wrong, these types of recipes are not meant for white people to modify to suit their white palates. This is someone else's culture and it's just not right to try to change it to try to make it "better" or whatever.

This is hilarious. Tell this to black people in America. Literally 90% of what they cook is "white people food".

[QUOTE] Am I really the asshole here?

yes

Bad news. All tobacco smokers who are not Native Americans from the South, you can't smoke any more. Tobacco was sacred to those tribes and anyone who is not Indigenous CANNOT use any form of it. Your othering and appropriation will no longer be tolerated. You have been warned.

Even worse news. Cannabis is native to the steppes of Asia. So steppe off if you're not indigenous to that region.

Ah-ah-ah -- are you a McTavish or a Donagh? If not, put down that Scotch! The name says it all. SCOTS ONLY. And keep your racist, genocidal, Columbusing paws off the Vodka unless you're Russian and can prove it.

Heated discussion in a Facebook food group on whether you should ever call a food or dish disgusting. Someone pointed out that the Thais have no word for this and instead say, I have not learned to like this.

I am going to give Southeast Asian fruit a chance except for Durian. But for haggis, tripe, mutton, eels, brains and lutefisk, it's a big no.

Ree Drummond's "Asian Chicken Wings"

SOMEONE has a worthless degree from Oberlin.

[quote]IMO, there’s simply more reverence and respect paid to French and Italian cooking traditions. In general.

Dumbest comment ever.

[quote]Someone pointed out that the Thais have no word for this and instead say, I have not learned to like this.

And so?

[quote]No disrespect but this is a very American way of thinking about food and it is not the case in other parts of the world.

In my town in Italy there is a sushi restaurant run by Italians, a Japanese restaurant run by Chinese, an Indian restaurant with an Italian cook, an Egyptian owned Pizza place, and two Italian owned German beer halls, an Italian trattoria run by Albanians.

No one gives a rats ass about cultural appropriation. It is an ignorant American phenomenon.

Instead people are concerned about fresh and high quality ingredients. And they want foods that taste good to their palate.

Ree Drummond is a home schooler and most likely a Trumpie, she gets no love from me. Fucking Karen

Ree Drummond proves the point that saying "yuk" to an entire continent's food is racist.

Are we supposed to be outraged by that Ree Drummond clip? Over exactly what?

I don't get it either, r117. People have too much time on their hands because of the lockdowns and restrictions. Seriously, if people had to go to work or school as normal and restaurants, clubs, theatres, etc. were open people wouldn't have the time to scour the internet for a 30-second clip of some Karen taking a roasting dish out of the oven and then studying it intently to find something offensive about it.

I guess the Japanese will have to close down their whiskey distilleries in Japan, since they appropriated it from the Irish.

Damned shame, they make delicious whiskey.

People who scream cultural appropriation and racism in food are just sanctimonious shits. They’ll find and stretch anything you say to label you a racist.

I had a classmate who’s into all things Chicano/ Mexican (she’s Asian). Anyways we were talking about our love of authentic Mexican food when I committed the sin of being racist. All I said was one of the things that I love about Mexican food is that it’s a rustic cuisine, not fussy, not fine dining like French and Japanese food. Then she got offended and told me that it was racist to not consider Mexican cuisine as fine dining in the same way as French and Japanese cuisines. My reply to her was along the lines that it is okay for a cuisine to not be known for fine dining or haute cuisine. It doesn’t make it lesser just different. It’s pretty much the consensus that French and Japanese cuisines are known for those elements.

Anyways she got pissed off at me for saying even that and she assigned the racist label for me simply saying I like the rustic elements of Mexican food. What the actual fuck.

[quote]All I said was one of the things that I love about Mexican food is that it’s a rustic cuisine, not fussy, not fine dining

The same could be said about most Italian food. It's not elaborate haute cuisine dependent on technique.

^^^Exactly. Even had I used Italian food as example she likely wouldn’t consider me racist because Italians are white Europeans.

^^^ yet you held Japanese food as an example of fine cuisine and that didn’t pacify her. Obviously there’s no pleasing her.

[quote]Am I really the asshole here? Or is she just acting this way because no one likes to be called out?

You are DEFINITELY the asshole. Who gives a fuck if she wants to make vegan Jambalaya? It's really none of your fucking business.

Well, I make these Chocolate Nuggers, which everyone just seems to love.

Alex Delany has supposedly been suspended per Reddit. No idea why or if it's true. Brad has an Instagram post supporting greater diversity and pay equity and noting he worked his way up from a dishwasher in the test kitchen.

There are recipes like those from the popular daily newspaper column "Aunt Priscilla," claimed to be the traditional recipes of an African American writer for the Baltimore Sun from the 1920s-1940s. They were instead written by a white woman using an Uncle Remus-y dialect.

The latest in this idiocy is the editor of the Toronto Star has managed to help get a broth bar shut down for cultural appropriation.

[quote]a white owned trendy spot on ossington is selling bone broth across from golden turtle pho. also sexualizing “jerk” sauce and pho hot sauce and making “superfood dumplings” for profit? y’all im sick

[quote]the cultures they are taking from literally fight daily for legitimacy. the *wellness* cleansing of the food, the lack historical understanding, and the number of followers is alarming. im not tryna knock small businesses but damn, this one hurts

[quote]i legit threw out my chinese food lunches cos white kids would make fun of it all day. i bought into pizza day and dry ass turkey burgers. so did many others. and now you taking our culture and selling it? and people think it’s legit? damn

That's always the argument that confuses me the most: "I was bullied as a kid and now that people are accepting I hate it and must stop it!"

The store has now ended their partnership with the broth bar due to these "concerns".

These people ruin everything that's enjoyable in life! The comments under her Twitter are nearly all condemnatory of this Evy Kwong woman though, which makes for funny reading.

There’s no such thing as cultural appropriation.

I wonder if Evy Kwong is happy that she has just helped ruin someone's livelihood during a pandemic? What a good, virtuous person she is!

If profit is involved, yes it’s bad.

Haha, "stunning and brave!"

[quote]You ended someone’s livelihood in the middle of a pandemic! What a hero you are! So progressive of you! Stunning and brave! Yas queen!

This would be frightening if SJW's had any impact outside of the internet. If I decide that I'm gonna make sushi for dinner and I'm a white man who the fuck is gonna stop me. Their insane level of policing doesn't work in real life, only from their keyboards.

Shaming cultural appropriation only works on celebrities, businesses, and those within the public eye. That's the great thing about wokeness, it only works online. If a white woman decides she wants to wear a kimono to go out and get coffee nobody's gonna stop her.

Anthony Bourdain would be cancelled now if he hasn’t died. Or....I guess they also cancel dead people?

Except, R133, the case at R128 really did affect someone outside of the internet. The person who owned that bar is now without a livelihood during this particularly tough time. I don't think they are going to be able to just laugh it off as online stuff.

R133

I don’t think anyone is arguing that it’s wrong for you to make food from another culture in your own home. But, if you use their culture and traditions to profit that’s fucked up.

I know I'm probably going to get red lined or FF'd or whatever for saying this, but this is why right wing politics are on the rise. This is why Trump got elected and then almost re-elected. Conservative politics are becoming more popular because of silly bullshit like this. People are tired of it.

I can see both sides; on one hand, this whole thing seems like PC culture run amuck - the kind of thing that Fox News has a field day with. One the other hand, I could see some enterprise little millennial, going to some rural area of say Mexico, for example, adapting local recipes and never giving credit to the people or cultures that created the original recipe. As many others have noted, food is a mashup of all kinds of cultures and ideas and why police or change that? But it's not fair to take credit for the work of others in any context without acknowledging their contribution to the final product.

There isn’t one single definitive recipe for every dish. And ethnicity doesn’t equate to knowledge of recipes and food, training / interest in culinary arts does.

People of color make fun of white people's cooking and call it "flavorless, unseasoned, etc" but then expect for us to never eat anything other than white people food. Fuck off.

Anyway.

There are actually a lot of bigoted foods for real. Interestingly, there’s just an incredible amount of bigoted food in Central Europe and Scandinavia. I would post pictures ... but I would probably get banned!

Those comments on the Evy Kwong thread at R128 are hilarious - I don't think this is at all going in the direction she hoped it would, people hate her!

Funnily enough, people I know in real life are always encouraging experimentation with their recipes. I hear a lot about how Italians are really fussy about things being done properly, but the Italians I know are just like: "Oh, you don't have that ingredient, chuck this in, it's pretty much the same/will taste different but good" etc.

There's some feeling in the air at the moment that everyone wants to control everything and hold on to the "way things are meant to be". Perhaps it's come out of how much uncertainty there is about life lately?

Anyway, I just feel sorry for the woman in the story above who's lost her business.

Bon Appetite has been a mess since 2018. It's been a steep downhill ride since then.

Oh no, not sexualiszed jerk sauce!!!!!! 😱

Hahaha. Silver lining?

[quote]I’ve never seen such unanimity in the replies. In these polarized tines you have managed to bring people together, to forget their differences and tell you how much you suck.

The pay discrepancies are inexcusable, if true, but the rest is a bit ridiculous IMHO. They'll need to begin with a new name for the magazine as well, as a French name could be charged as cultural appropriation as well. Oh the irony here is delicious.

An Anglophone country, whose citizens ordinarily resist learning a second language shouldn't be allowed to get away with this! It's an insult to the French speaking world, and a rip-off! How dare they!

The whole people making fun of me as a child thing is I think the crux to this whole matter. It's revenge, pure and simple. A really, ridiculous form of revenge.

[quote]i legit threw out my chinese food lunches cos white kids would make fun of it all day. i bought into pizza day and dry ass turkey burgers. so did many others. and now you taking our culture and selling it? and people think it’s legit? damn

Also, she's talking about her Chinese food and complaining that this woman was selling Vietnamese food? Is Vietnamese food Chinese culture? I'm confused.

Regarding their Evy Kwong....she saying “ya’ll” and “dry ass..” Sounds like she’s stealing dialectic!

Gourmet was a MUCH better magazine. They wouldn't be entertaining any of this BS either if they were still around.

Hahah R151! Good point!

What does make me laugh about people like her is that their arguments are so ridiculous and they can so easily be turned and used against the people using them as well. Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now, Evy, would we? 😂

We get it, you reactionary 'reverse racism'-screaming trash. You think that people of color are the REAL oppressors and you just hate, Hate, HATE it.

Safe spaces! Triggered! Snowflakes! Woke! Cancel culture! Far left! Twitter! Cultural appropriation!

A good 25% of threads on this site are nearly identical to what a person would find from the backwoods libertarian garbage on Breitbart.

Uneducated, sheltered, threatened small people finding every instance that someone demographically different than you says something unpopular so you can pile on with joyously smarmy contempt.

Every easy-target statement made by some random trans or POC in an article or on twitter just makes you salivate with sadistic glee at the thought of tearing them to shreds.

Spot on!

[quote]And this is the real crux of it: You're making your identity crisis an 'everyone' problem when it's really just a 'you' problem.

R149 Cultural appropriation apparently doesn't work from the pov of white cultures. Apparently you can't appropriate culture from white people. So they'd never have to worry about being accused of appropriating french culture, people don't think whites have any claim to a culture.

R155

Oh look, a twitter post from a guy who complains about "the shenanigans of fringe left-wing Jews".

Seems legit.

R156

When will people realize that whites are the REAL victims of inequality!

/sarcasm

R154 has stated her boundaries!

It's FOOD. It doesn't give a shit about the race of humans. It just sits there like an attention whore and screams "EAT ME!"

Why does that bitch have a frog on her head?

Oh man, another Ooze meltdown! Love it, more, more, MORE!

Calm down, R154, you just get out of prison!!

No.

"Cultural appropriation" is not any sort of a thing ever.

FF, Oozy, Bye, Felicia! Racist!

Isn't Toronto meant to be the most multicultural city in the world? What is that girl's problem that some non-Chinese person sold a couple of dumplings with her juice business?

R163

Sweetheart, I'm eating broccoli and hummus and browsing. Don't flatter yourself.

The geriatric middle-brow ignorance of DL isn't ever going to reduce me to a puddle.

I saw it at every family reunion growing up. Old, backwards, white people scared of everyone unlike themselves.

Keep trying though, I'm sure you'll break me eventually.

LOL Evy Kwong's colleagues are now posting tweets about how wonderful she is, the hardest worker, the best colleague... and all the comments under are like: "Yeah... best at destroying small businesses!" Hahaha.

Anyone posted the Kwanzaa Cak yet?

So, now people are claiming cultural appropriation because of their butt hurt feelings as a kid over some white kid making fun of their vindaloo or whatever? This is so childish, it's unbelievable.

R137, "I don’t think anyone is arguing that it’s wrong for you to make food from another culture in your own home. But, if you use their culture and traditions to profit that’s fucked up."

Why?

It's insane, I agree R172. And it's like chopping off one's nose, as the saying goes. Because people like Kwong are trying to stop any sort of cross-cultural interactions, which isn't going to lead to anything except more discrimination, more racism. She's probably one of those people who secretly get off an being able to claim victim status all the time.

Every single woke person seems to be clinging to some weird childhood trauma that caused them to grow up and become a bitter, hateful, sanctimonious ball of anger.

True to form, this woman who tells other people they can't do things because of their background, has a video of herself line dancing on Twitter too. Their arguments only ever go in one direction, it seems.

Every claim of cultural appropriation, racism, etc that I've seen in recent years seems to be coming from a place of projection.

This woman probably thinks the juice bar was diverting customers from the Vietnamese restaurant over the road, but surely the customer base would be different? Like, I feel most people shopping in an athletics store are really more interested in the juice, and maybe seeing food options they'll think: "oh, actually I'm hungry, maybe I'll have some soup too", but it doesn't follow that if there was no soup that they would be bothered to go across the road and dine at the restaurant.

Reminds me a bit of that brouhaha over American Dirt earlier this year, where people were saying: "if only she hadn't written a thriller about this topic, publishing houses would've lapped up my memoir" - they're not the same market, I don't think it works like that exactly.

I made borscht last night and my dinner guests said I was a troll.

The idea of cold soup has never appealed to me, so the thought of borscht isn't very appetizing... which might be a 'problematic' statement, whoops! Haha!

I think George Floyd's horrible death was the breaking point for many people and in the culinary world, it allowed people of color to express their frustration and anger at white majority culture being the norm everything was measured against and its resulting economic injustice. . Bon Appetit was reorganized and the NYT's food section has recruited new writers and is embracing African food to a much greater extent.. While I understand and have no problem with these efforts, I no longer watch Bon Appetit's videos and will let my subscription to the NYT's food service lapse. Maybe it's a fair trade that while I find a lot of the recipes unrelatable, others finally feel included. So be it.

I refuse to accept that when I try to cook different global cuisines I am guilty of cultural appropriation. I have always believed that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

R182

Again, that is not the problem. The problem is using it for profit. That isn’t flattery, it is exploiting minority’s cultures and traditions.

R183 if a white chef who loves and has studied say, Chinese cooking, opens a restaurant serving Chinese cuisine, is that appropriation? He would presumably be making a profit.

If the issue is profiting off of other culture's food does that mean that white people can only open restaurants that serve baked potatoes and roast chicken?

I expect that it'll be considered cultural appropriation to eat at a Chinese restaurant if you aren't Chinese any day now. It's a slippery slope and we're currently experiencing the slide down.

Should I regret not having chitlins?

I'm sorry, R181, you're a colossal bore. And the whole " cultural appropriation" movement was going on much before George Floyd. It was largely the product of young WHITE women.

What are you talking about, r188? Most chefs are white males and they were "appropriating" cultures long before anyone. That is if you think that cooking outside your culture is appropriation. I don't think that, but apparently you do.

Having seen the way many of these people argue, they will undoubtedly say: "No one's saying you can't cook Chinese food, we're just saying you need to be mindful of the history and the culture and be culturally sensitive before you do." Everyone who cooks the food will be assumed to have not been mindful in any way, even if it's a chef who has studied the traditions for 10 years and has lived in the country and probably knows more about the traditions than Chinese people themselves. They always start out by assuming the worst about everyone's intentions.

If some self-appointed ninny squad thinks I'm going to give up cooking and eating Italian, an ethnicity of which I possess less than 1%, they're pazzo.

The world has lost its shit.

R184

Yes, that is the worst offense. He is literally stealing a position that belongs to Chinese Americans. They should be profiting off of Chinese restaurants, not anyone else. There are poor Chinese Americans who can cook trying to get by and this man is exploiting their culture and making the benjamins. While underpaying the probable Asian staff at said restaurant. It is sickening what white people have gotten away with.

R191 - did you say "pazzo"? Combining languages like that, when you are less than 1% Italian?! Other languages are not there to decorate your English posts! Code switching has rules, you know! LITERAL VIOLENCE!

PS but congratulations on not italicizing it, because that would've been even worse!

[quote] It is sickening what white people have gotten away with.

White men are the reason you are able to type your idiotic thoughts behind a computer, dumbass. Show some respect.

R192 What if people prefer his food to another Chinese restaurant on the same street? Maybe the white guy is the better chef. Aren’t we supposed to look at people’s abilities, not their skin color?

Why do we infantilize people? We can all decide where we want to eat and which restaurants we prefer. We don’t need handholding.

I can promise you too that Chinese people don't care if a white man opens a Chinese restaurant. It's always bloody Yanks that go on about this shit.

My gawd, a bunch of jesting shirleys in this thread. I hope most of this is satire.

I can't speak for the whole country, but in Texas most 'cooks' are Mexican. Behind sushi counters, in Indian restaunt kitchens, Italian and Jewish delis, etc.

Nothing to add to this except that I want doughy, missing-toothed Brad Leone to fuck me absolutely silly.

Had no idea who that was, so looked him up, and yeah, I think I would too.

Unfortunately R202, I think they're deadly serious.

"it's attempting to take credit for another culture's food. Profiting off another person's methods which is what they did."

That is ludicrous. Please tell me what ethnicity wheat and eggs are. There hasn't been a community, society or culture since the dawn of civilization that haven't shared, borrowed, exchanged or interpolated recipes from one another. It not only promoted tolerance and understanding but also insured SURVIVAL. For anyone to claim that THEIR dish is the one and only original authentic one is incredibly ignorant.

Exactly, R205. Plus, most people don't actually care who is making their food, provided it is good. And that includes people from the communities whose food is being so-called "appropriated". Probably they also know that their cuisine has itself been inspired by other cultures too.

This is just a weird insistence that certain people in the world are perpetual victims and others are perpetual oppressors. It's so patronising!

It's a perverse state called "inverted empathy": somebody else's suffering becomes about you. Narcissism run amok.

This whole topic is very confusing. I just saw Roxane Gay and followers mocking white people because "they" never use spices in their food, apparently (which is bullshit, as my family do), but at the same time they're all nodding their heads sagely (see what I did there?) at articles talking about how white people using spices in their foods is "cultural appropriation".

Which is it, weirdos? You can't have it both ways.

Or, I suppose they think they can, as long as they have an excuse to complain and as R207 says, make it all about them.

Pretty soon even eating food that isn't from "your culture" food will be considered racist.

I'd never take an opinion of Roxane Gay regarding food seriously--she clearly has such a problematic relationship with it.

Actually, I think a lot of this is part of that weird puritanical relationship American women have with food. They don't know how to simply appreciate and enjoy it--there's always these layers of guilt, gluttony, overthinking, etc. over food. Right now, it's cultural appropriation, two years ago it was gluten intolerance, there's also veganism. It's just one food disorder after another--denial and guilt combined with binging and mindless, unhappy eating.

It's all very odd because good cooks around the world generally like to share--recipes and techniques get shared. People who don't have a twisted relationship with food generally like their cuisine to be appreciated. They like to talk about it. This current food appropriation thing is kind of demented and deeply perverse.

That said, the whole Bon Appetit dust up serves Conde Nast right. Gourmet was the better magazine by far, but they kept Ruth Reichl from developing an online Gourmet presence (they didn't want to dilute their Epicurious Web site) and chose to save Bon Appetit over Gourmet to get the younger audience. Well, they got it--at least online--and all the drama that goes with the narcissistic millennial crew.

[quote] It's all very odd because good cooks around the world generally like to share--recipes and techniques get shared. People who don't have a twisted relationship with food generally like their cuisine to be appreciated. They like to talk about it. This current food appropriation thing is kind of demented and deeply perverse.

Yep! This has been my experience too. When I was first living alone friends of mine from different backgrounds made it their mission to show me how to cook. We had so much fun, I learned heaps of great dishes - ones that are deceptively easy, but look impressive - I was taught how to mix and match, how to substitute, how to make meals through fusion and these people are still my closest friends today. These "cultural appropriation" people have never had real friends from different backgrounds to them, they wouldn't be so keen to talk over them and tell them how they should feel about things if they did.

[quote]I'd never take an opinion of Roxane Gay regarding food seriously--she clearly has such a problematic relationship with it.

Especially from a woman whose cooking resembles something you might see in a hospital bedpan.

When these discussions come up, there are a number of complaints. Why was I forced to feel the food I grew up with was smelly? White food professionals are stealing my culture's ingredients or recipes and renaming them for a white audience. POC food professionals never get the breaks that white people do, and are stereotyped as ethnic cooks or food writers. Food magazines are written for white people with the food of POC rarely featured or interpreted inauthentically.

The only common thread is it sucks to be a minority.

"White food professionals are stealing my culture's ingredients or recipes and renaming them for a white audience." Please give us an example of that.

[quote]Why was I forced to feel the food I grew up with was smelly?

So were Italians.

And guess what? They don't give a flying fuck.

Mangia!

Yeah, the idea that there aren't smelly foods out of Europe is sheer navel-gazing ignorance. Spain and Italy love garlic. Everybody, and I mean everybody, uses onions. The northern countries all use cabbage. Then there are the cheeses like limburger.

Basically, the Toronto Star idiot is using some long-ago memory of some kid's behavior to act badly as an adult. What a bitch. Well, live by the Tweet, die by the Tweet.

Yeah, I've met some Italians of the immigrant generation and they will tell stories about how Australian kids didn't appreciate their foods at school, but it's never with this "oh woe is me!" attitude, they just view it as Australians not having been exposed to pasta before and being scared of trying unfamiliar foods, and of course now we all love Italian food so they were vindicated and it's all good.

I agree with R217's assessment of that woman, and I think honestly she probably believes that if she tells a sob story about being teased for her lunch as a child then no one can come back at her. It's a logical fallacy - argumentum ad passiones or appeal to emotion.

Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

R218 Expecting logic in place of emotion from someone on Twitter who centers their every waking moment around identity politics is a recipe for disaster and cancellation.

Oh yeah R220, agreed, that's definitely true. You can't expect logic in the rantings of someone like her.

Here ya go, R215--Alison Roman's the stew

I am not a Sohla El-Waylly fan. Here she is calling Brad Leone "a big dumb white guy." She can't understand why anyone would prefer to watch him rather than her.

I find him attractive, informative and funny and I find Sohla none of these things. Her getting a shitty deal at BA earns my sympathy but does not make me a fan. Priya Krishna is a whiner. Rick Martinez is a god and they should have paid him whatever he asked. Every one of Christine Chaey's recipes I made were delicious, and I would love to watch her videos.

How are BA's new people?

R222, that article is insufferable. Endless hand-wringing about ... I'm not sure. But it did become clear to me as I was reading the article, is that all this is about is that white is still the main color in media. This isn't about food, it's about media and the decisions of media companies about who to feature. Then I quit reading it.

Evy Kwong is now trying to avoid the backlash by posting a nasty racist email she received, so she's definitely one for an appeal to emotion. The email is really nasty, but what's funny is many of the people responding have pointed out how it looks exactly like something typed up on Word rather than received through email. She's also not showing the person who sent it, but she was happy to go after a small business the way she did over something much less egregious, which isn't helping her case in being believed that she didn't write it herself. Anyway, regardless of the truth, it doesn't make her any less of a shit person for her actions. It just means she's in good company.

This girl has solved the problem! Just go to Wikipedia!

[quote]For white people I’ll make it easy google the thing and go to the Wikipedia article scroll to the history section. If the section says it originated or was popularised by a race or culture you are not aligned to then it’s not for you. There may be exceptions but it’s a good start

ummm.... 'white people' is not a monolithic culture. Hopefully this ridiculousness will pass soon.

You can't possibly find Brad Leone informative, the guy gets a minimum of 3 things wrong per video and they have to add a caption correcting him every time. That is, in fact, his whole shtick, which is what Sohla was referencing: Bon Appetit spent years making videos that were literally about nothing but Brad screwing up.

It may have been scripted, like I suspect Claire's videos were (they all had the same narrative arc: she thinks it'll be fun and easy, it goes haywire, she triumphs in the face of failure), but scripted or not, the entire point of Brad was to laugh at a big dumb white guy.

In BA threads we pretty obviously have a self-appointed hater who usually directs their ire at Sohla (though once they changed it up and pretended to be an SJW of color who was mad at Carla) so I get what's happening here, but whoever this is doesn't know jack shit about BA videos, and it's beyond irritating.

R215, the best example is literally what started this whole thing: the Puerto Rican food writer who pitched a recipe to BA, Adam Rapoport basically approved it until some editor told him no, he rudely (and with a few sketchy comments) told the writer to go pound sand, then a couple months later the recipe shows up on a BA video with blonde, white Molly presenting it as a BA recipe.

Exactly R227. And I too hope it will pass soon.

God, you can't make this stuff up. When your company has a diversity problem, what do you do? Why, you hire Roxane Gay to write an article about cooking: a topic she has very little expertise in! Black? Check! Lesbian? Check! Overweight? Check! Diversity problem? What diversity problem!

Oh to have the confidence of mediocre Roxane!

[quote]Or.... I am a great cook and know what I am talking about in my own house

I'll have one from column one and one from column two.

Or just bring me General Tso's chicken...with brown rice.

Roxane Gay talks about her privilege of being near fresh food because she lives in LA, but then lists one damn high-carb meal after another. There's a woeful lack of vegetables or even fresh fruit in that list of hers.

Will someone show Roxane what a salad looks like?

Bwahaha R234! Just imagine! Roxane and her followers would have a field day with "food policing" her choices, haha!

In all seriousness, I know a few people who avoid vegetables and fruit like that. Don't they feel ill the whole time? And surely you can't... well... you know, evacuate very well without those foods in your diet. Sounds unpleasant!

Did Roxanne grow up in a two parent household? Was she the favorite child of multiple siblings or something? I don't know much about her upbringing, but she has the baseless confidence and entitlement of a child who grew up having their ass kissed by enabling parents. It's the kind of arrogance and self-assurance that you only see in people who grew up with doting parents.

I'm not 100% sure of her family situation, but I'm pretty sure it was a two parent household, and they were pretty wealthy, as they sent her to the best schools (Phillips Exeter I believe, I'm not American, but I believe that's a pretty prestigous school). That's really all I know.

It's interesting, I do know that her gal pal, Randa Jarrar, who exhibits very similar behaviour to Roxane, also comes from a very wealthy and privileged background, yet is always trying to pretend she didn't.

Gay was the child of Haitian immigrants, but I think they were well-educated, not rich, but striving, so she got a scholarship of some sort to Phillips Exeter and then Yale. She was also gang-raped at a young age (I think 12-14), which led to the massive body issues/overeating, according to her. She didn't tell her parents, but naturally she wrote about it.

So, basically, some serious trauma, but also the recipient of being the bright token kid that private schools use to pretend that we're a meritocracy. So a mixture of victimhood and extreme privilege. She will not, for example, fly anything less than first class because of her weight. She's kind of a power-victim--she really never, ever has to consider other people's points of view--thats where that reek of entitlement comes from. And, of course, she has a total cult following of young women.

R239, I think you put that perfectly, "a kind of power victim". Exactly. She doesn't even seem to understand her hypocrisy in a lot of what she says. She will say "all people who did this are bad" in one breath and then follow it up with a story about her doing the exact same thing. So many people love the things she says, and all I get is this real feeling of "emperor's new clothes" about her.

Having said that, I will criticise her and have done for her words and actions, and I do think she can be a really unpleasant person in many ways, in fact I've seen it many times. But she has my deepest sympathy over what happened to her, that is horrific. A similar thing happened to a friend of mine who is one of the most pleasant people you will meet though, so with Roxane, you might say it explains some things, but it can't excuse them.

Her trauma does not explain how she got to be the way she is today. Being a rich, private school kid from a two parent home clearly shaped her life more than her assault ever did. The only thing her trauma explains is her perpetual bitterness and hatred for everyone around her.

[quote]the recipient of being the bright token kid that private schools use to pretend that we're a meritocracy.

This is such a good point, because as far as I can see, this attitude has extended into her adult career.

R241, I think you're right.

I think the sexual assault happening at such an early formative age--she was the victim of a boy she had a crush on does explain a lot about her, but as much as the crime itself, she was formed by how it wasn't dealt with. She didn't tell her parents. She did the classic eat-her-feelings. My recollection is that the people at Phillips Exeter reached out to her, but she wouldn't reveal what happened (it happened before she went there.). In a way, she never gave herself a chance to heal from it or really move forward. It's been my observation that victims of severe trauma can get kind emotionally trapped at the age of the trauma. Gay is kind of this hurt kid. She's middle-aged, but still eating recklessly like a kid and spewing narcissistically like a teen-ager. I think part of the reason her cult following is young women is that she doesn't really have all that much to say that's meaningful to full-fledged adults. There's no dialogue with someone like her, no evolving of ideas. It's a little depressing that she's what passes for a modern-day feminist/intellectual.

Wow R243, I really enjoyed reading your post, I think it points out the issues perfectly. I have often wondered why a woman nearly 50 years old acts like a teenager and why so many people respond positively to it. And you're right, there is no dialogue or evolving of ideas. Her immediate reaction to someone with a different opinion to her is to take it as an attack and she lashes out in what she thinks is a proportionate response but is actually way overboard a lot of the time.

It seems like she's never really dealt with it in a healthy way. Perhaps she thinks writing about it publicly helps, but she clearly needs more work. She can't keep taking it out on other people, especially when it comes down to doing things like literally trying to ruin the careers of other people, and inciting mob attacks.

I'll never understand how boys/men can do stuff like that, it's so... I just can't imagine what is wrong with you to even consider doing it yourself, let alone getting your friends involved too (and them going along with it!). Ugh, I can't think about it, it's too upsetting.

I feel as you do R243, that it is a little depressing that she is what passes for a modern day feminist and intellectual. It's actually really easy to expose the flaws in her arguments but to do so now is just taken to be some sort of racial or misogynist attack on her.

Thanks R244, I read her memoir about her being heavy because I was kind of curious about what the fuss was about. I didn't hate it or her, but it didn't really gel. She's kind of a mess and lauded for being a mess. She, weirdly enough, reminds me of Sylvia Plath, though Plath was a much better poet. But I think both of them are terrible role models and they're used that way.

Bwahaha! Ok, here's a nice little coda to the whole Evy Kwong kerfuffle above.

Turns out the owner of the company that she was accusing of cultural appropriation, Ripe Nutrition, is doing some sort of collaboration with the owner of the Golden Turtle, that is the Vietnamese restaurant across the road that Kwong argued she was trying to protect by shutting down Ripe Nutrition. Apparently the Golden Turtle reached out to the owner of RN "and they've been so kind throughout this whole thing."

[quote]The two women said they share a passion for both food and community, and they're also in similar positions as young female business owners in Toronto, so they're choosing to focus on what unites them rather than what separates them despite all the noise from the peanut gallery. "Both our mentalities align… we're both the same," said Nguyen. "We want the best for the community, we want the best for ourselves." As a result, the two companies are currently working on a collaboration.

What a lovely ending to that ridiculous story, Evy Kwong sure does have egg on her face. Hopefully not in a culturally appropriative way!

Looks like Kwong's restaurant damaged the VIetnamese restaurant she was trying to promote and the expense of the broth bar. Both places are just trying to stay in business.

Where I am (California), Chinese run all sorts of restaurants, not just Chinese ones. I've seen them take over German restaurants, Jamaican, All-American diners, etc. That's how the real world works--you run the kind of business you know how to run and serve the food people will buy.

It's not incidental that Kwong seems to have zero experience with the restaurant business or as a chef.

Roxane Gay: During isolation, I have made pretzels, bagels, cinnamon-raisin bread, scones, croissants, layer cakes, coffee cake, mint chocolate bars, cookies, eclairs, meringues, homemade pizza, tsoureki bread, chicken milanese, chicken tortilla soup, chicken fajitas with homemade tortillas, Mongolian beef, soufflés. I made an entire Passover meal—matzo ball soup with homemade matzo balls, a brisket, a potato kugel, apples and honey—for the first time in my life because my fiancée is Jewish.

Huh? I mean, that all sounds lovely, but does she ever eat much in the way of fruit and vegetables? Also, I think those chicken fajitas and homemade tortillas were one of the items she instagramed that looked, ummm... kinda like the end product of what happens to food, rather than the beginning, if you get me.

Oh dear! The next part in the Bon Appetit saga - Roxane Gay has thoughts on the latest!

[quote]LOL yesterday Bon Appetit had the NERVE to say this is soup joumou! Today they are calling it pumpkin soup, and that's fine as that's what it is. But still! SMH! How can one publication so consistently make these missteps? (I know the answer.)

I wonder what the answer is, according to her? Someone calling themselves @nicolecozzie has her feelings too:

[quote]The CAUCACITY. I’m tired of white people.

Bon Appetit do seem to be stepping in it a lot lately. I guess Roxane will not be working for them anymore either!

Seriously? They got upset about a Black chef's variation on a Haitian soup? Do they not realize that this is what chefs do? Take dishes and put their own spin on them?

It just gets crazier and crazier.

Anyone who believes cultural appropriation is some sort of sin is a fool.

Mankind has been culturally appropriating everything from each other since we learned to borrow a bone. It is what raises us up.

Steer well clear of Woke idiots and their idiocy.

[quote]Bon Appetit do seem to be stepping in it a lot lately

They put a stench strip in the Christmas issue. I threw it in the trash the minute I entered my apartment.

I agree, R251/R252. I do think there is value in talking about traditions in cooking (or at least, I can find it interesting), but I don't think it's a terrible thing that people put their spin on things, as though they are trying to erase culture or something. Most chefs who do this are making THEIR version, and are tying it to their own name, not to say that this is the way it really is. Nigella Lawson does this all the time (Nigella's frangelico tiramisu for example), as does Jamie Oliver. I'm confused by the people who are talking about it on Twitter as though this has actually physically or mentally damaged them. It is possible to point out that certain things aren't done traditionally in a way that is more amusing and isn't so scolding, if you must.

And surely what is considered traditional cooking had been developed over centuries too, by different people? And if there wasn't that development, we wouldn't have some of the delicious meals we have today?

I dunno, I guess I just think, when picking your battles, this is not the hill to die on. But then again it is Roxane Gay, you can just feel the glee in her words that she gets to complain about something yet again.

[quote]They got upset about a Black chef's variation on a Haitian soup?

Jesus. I bet those followers of Roxane who immediately jumped to blaming white people and racism must feel good about themselves.

So many deadnames for one soup.

[quote]By Wednesday afternoon, the recipe on Bon Appétit’s website had been retitled “Independence Day Soup,” then retitled once more to “Pumpkin Soup With Spiced Nuts.” The introduction now only tells the history of soup joumou, and Samuelsson is listed as the lone author. The chef himself has yet to comment, perhaps because he can’t take his eyes away from the comments section, which continues to plead for justice for soup joumou and death to the offensive “squash and coconut milk bisque,” as one dubbed it.

Bon Appetit just have to hold their breath for a few more hours, Twitter is already more outraged about Chet Hanks speaking patois at the moment.

I'm in the habit of making of 16 pieces of Alkhubz almusatah every fortnight.

Now I'll think I'll call them Tortillas.

Interestingly, a tortilla in Spain is a potato and egg omelette.

I'm curious as to what the secret is that Roxane claims to know ("I know the answer."). Come on, Roxane, spill!

This question highlights what is wrong with the way a lot of people view the world. We should share and celebrate our differences and the similarities. If we can see that people have something to offer us from their cultures maybe we can be more appreciative of it overall and give back.

Plus Indian cuisine is amazing...

I don't understand why Americans have such a need to segregate everyone into boxes of who can do what, and in this day and age after everything history has shown us with Jim Crow, Apartheid etc? And why get so upset when people mix cultures? The nastiest thing is that I keep seeing stories where Jamaicans are like: "you don't need to get offended because Adele wore a bikini or Chet Hanks speaks in patois, we don't care" and the Americans start calling them "uncle Tom's" and "pick me, massa!" and insist that Jamaicans NEED to feel offended. Some of that stuff sounds way more racist than whatever so-called racism claim they are trying to prevent. That's my rant, anyway.

There is so much great food from around the world, it's always been adapted to the tastes of the people in the country it's being eaten in, for example Chinese food or Italian food in places like the US, UK or Australia is very different to the food in Italy and China, but that's ok, it can all sit side by side, and we all have the freedom, I would hope, to cook to our own tastes, whatever they are. After all, the person eating it is the one who has to eat it.

My white dad makes the best Thai Green Curry I've ever eaten in my life, and when he cooks it for guests, they always want to learn to make it themselves the way he does. But he doesn't use any seafood because he doesn't like it, and he made me one with quorn when I was over the other night because I'm vegetarian. I guess he should be shamed and made to apologize. I mean, he's someone who's said all his life that immigration was the best thing to happen to our country, but I guess he didn't realize how hurtful it would be to alter another country's dish!

Roxanne Gay could put in some Breakfast At Tiffany's style buckteeth, don a kimono, and call herself Mrs. Ching Chong and have a cooking show on Bon Appetite where she makes traditional asian style dishes while also providing commentary (complete with a holiday episode where she sings "fah rah rah rah rah") and STILL not get cancelled for cultural appropriation.

It's crazy, but American society has decided that black people can't be racist or appropriate any culture, period. They've decided to let their nation's history of slavery dictate the overall world's view of race forever.

Bon Appétit is for upper middle class white people and it always has been. This latest push at diversity is laughable

I think diversity is commendable (and should be the norm), but it's like Bon Appetit have no idea what they are doing and at the same time no one out there is going to accept anything they try to do as being good enough anyway. It's like "what's the point?"

R264, and that decision of some people to think racism can only go one way (or 'appropriation' as they define it) is like a complete, I would say deliberate, misunderstanding of discussions of institutionalised racism and what that means, as though that's the only kind of racism there is. It's sort of jumping on the bandwagon, not to help in moving forward, but to find a way to claim neverending oppression as a way to get out of being criticised for anything. I've noticed sometimes there are people who only go along with social justice because of what they get out of it, not to actually help people.

It's like that bit in The Brady Bunch movie: "Get with the times, Greg! There's a new thing called 'Women's Lib'. It means women get everything they want."

To be clear, I'm not dismissing the actual good and hard work being done to improve society, just the selfish people who are only interested in talking about this stuff if they can claim superiority. I hope I'm making sense.

Up Next: Roxane Gay declares Hawaiian Pizza to be Greatest Cultural Crime of the 20th Century.

We get it already Roxanne, you're a lesbian.

[quote]Bon Appétit is for upper middle class white people and it always has been.

Rather than being force fed "diversity" people are now watching chefs and home cooks on YouTube and reading blogs i.e. places free of politics, racial quotas and silly discussions about cultural appropriation.

Of course the far left will try to destroy all that too.

Some people are just killjoys. When you read some of the things they say online you realize they are desperate to find offense in everything. They do very little about the things that really need their attention though (too hard, I imagine. Much easier to scold someone on Twitter).

I imagine at the same time, if you are in that environment all the time it must do a number on your head. I don't Twitter at all really, just check in to watch the latest controversy every now and then, and even after a few minutes of doing that, it sort of fucks with your emotions a bit. It can be very irritating. Checking in on that every day and thinking that's life? That's got to warp you somehow.

r268 You don't get it actually. She is bisexual and very vocal about it. One of those who think gay people are exclusionary and closed minded. lesbian is too pedestrian and 'white' for her.

Roxane really should have have played up the born-with-a-white-parasitic-twin-growing-out-of-my-side angle. [italic]Nobody[/italic] has that and it would've put her in the most rarefied of spaces.

Who IS that? Is that her wife? Those pictures are really awkward.

Of course her wife is white. Of course

I must say, if those pics are more recent, the Roxane really is losing weight. Compared to the photos I've seen of her on here before, where she almost looks like she is about to burst, the difference is quite noticeable!

She probably got a serious warning about her health. At her age, it's a diet or your life--if the weight loss is rapid, she's had the surgery.

You can only lie to yourself about being fat, but healthy for so long. Yeah, there are a few people with serious muscle and aren't actually obese, but Roxie ain't in that category. She's morbidly obese and old enough for the "morbid" part to come into play. Also, the fat-but-healthy types aren't obese, they're chubby--there's a big difference. There's no way to be healthy at Gay's BMI.

NY Italians have been culturally appropriating matzo, making iit soggy and calling it pizza crust! Thank God for Chicago deep dish!!

R279, you hit on something there I've been thinking about recently. The fact you can be healthy at chubby, curvy, stocky etc is often being mistaken for you also being able to be healthy at morbidly obese. As you say, there's a big difference. I feel she must've had a warning too, and probably did get the surgery. Knowing a few people who had the surgery and just ate around it and put all the weight back on though, she is doing well in keeping it down so far.

It's not Roxane's fault, you guys. It's the fault of medical practitioners!

[quote]Some day doctors won’t express visible surprise when a fat patient has good blood pressure and labs but today is not that day.

NOT okay: pay disparities based on race at BA, "brownface, " and routinely featuring wypipo cooking every other ethnicity's food all the time. It's akin to Katherine Hepburn playing Chinese in Dragon Seed. But come the fck on, where is the balance? Can we melanin-deficients *never* fry a damn quesadilla?!

She keeps saying this. We've all seen the photos of her so-called "cooking".

[quote]I am a good cook. To be clear.

She must've been aware of how "Roxane Gay's cooking" was trending for awhile there with everyone laughing at her attempts, so I guess she's doubling down. If she says it enough times, it will be true!

.

It bothers me much more when websites give a lousy recipe or leave out ingredients than when they muddle cultures. If Bon Appetit hadn't messed up on the Haitian soup, I would never have known about it or its history. (Sorry, the plantains and beef in the traditional recipe are a dealbreaker.) This is much less a discussion about food than of POC food journalists and recipe developers, who deserve greater exposure and equal pay--no question. When some of these professional foodies tell me that they don't want to cook or write for white people or suggest that I have no business modifying a recipe because I can't devote hours to finding ingredients, they lose me. I don't care if someone made fun of their lunch when they were kids or thought their food was smelly. Get over it.

The reality is that Bon Appetit and the NYT have to compete with tons of free content online and most people are there just for the recipes and not the chitchat.

[quote] I don't care if someone made fun of their lunch when they were kids or thought their food was smelly. Get over it.

I agree. I know I might sound harsh here, but we were [italic]all[/italic] bullied and made fun of as kids, weren't we? I was, very much so. We can't go into our adulthood trying to make society pay for the actions of a few other kids at school. It doesn't help anyone, least of all ourselves, to hold on to this. And there is no evidence of the equivalence that is made in these arguments. The person who loves cooking food from other cultures as an adult isn't necessarily the one who made fun of your lunch at school.

Chef Stephanie Izard has apologised for making bibimbap. Three guesses as to what the guy who brought it up said in his interview... yes, he was bullied at school for eating bibimbap!

(It's doubly weird because he then says he doesn't want her cancelled and he does fusion himself, so what's the point of the whole thing?)

Old article, sorry. But it’s been happening....

Don't Eat, Don't Pray, Don't Love!

[quote]The backlash to the revelation that Thug Kitchen is written by white people has inspired a backlash of its own. Detractors of Davis and Holloway's critics point out that automatically associating the word thug with black men is itself racist.

This is what I was thinking as I read that article. Plus, isn't the word thug from India originally?

Black people want it both ways. They want their culture represented but the minute it is by anyone who isn’t charcoal black they complain and cry racism. Sick of the 24/7 outrage culture we have.

Yes R290 but the twitter mob doesn't let facts get in the way.

The chef who went after Izard spoke of growing up a poor immigrant in an apartment in West Rogers Park. It's not chic but it's a middle-class neighborhood and has been since the 40s. Call me when Dunkin Donuts and Panera pass out cultural context cards with their bagels.

Oh and the chef has a Korean-Polish fusion restaurant.

r293 It reminds me of that gay latino writer/ activist (who used to work for Vice I think) who is very woke. Bernie bro, queer this and that and his twitter was all about being 'brown' and racism etc, yet he was registered to vote at his parents mansion in Miami.......which was with something like 14 minion fucking dollars. Fucking hell. Cant remember his name.

God, that hypocrisy is so annoying, but also you just expect it now, don't you?

Yeah, I have no idea what point that chef who criticised Izard was on about. We're becoming a society of people who just want to constantly gripe at others.

Thug Kitchen (now called Bad Manners) is insufferable. It started out as the Tumblr version of a drunk frau in a birthday tiara, throwing gang signs and giggling about "mah bitchezzz," and took off when Goop endorsed them. Now they have a podcast with dueling his-and-hers vocal fry.

[quote]THERE’S SO MUCH GOD DAMN SPINACH in this shit even Popeye can’t hate. Yeah spinach makes you swoll as fuck, we know that. But did you know just one cup of spinach is over 300% of your daily recommended Vitamin A? Sweet fuck. You worried about acne? Wrinkles? Any other skin shit? Spinach to the mother fucking rescue. That shit keeps your skin looking so fresh and so clean, not to mention helping to prevent skin cancer. Spinach has these plant-based compounds called “flavonoids” that not only repair damaged skin but also fight multiple types of cancer. Everybody knows I ain’t even fucking playing when it comes to dick cancer, I gotta have my shit in tact.

[quote]I’M SO TIRED OF MOTHER FUCKERS asking “Where do you get your protein?” All you simple minded bastards better read up some. I eat shit like whole grains, beans, nuts, lentils, tempeh… I mean hell, where the fuck are YOU getting your protein? Black beans are one of my favorite protein sources for sure. The insoluble fiber these are packing keeps the body feeling full while holding calories down low. But hold up, this shit also has soluble fiber to regulate the fuck out of your glucose levels. So eat more black beans and sign some fucking autographs.

[quote]FAST FOOD DOESN’T GET FASTER THAN THIS SHIT. You can eat these sons of bitches raw. Sometimes I like them hot so I toss em on the grill. Use some of that bomb-ass peanut sauce too. Look, just because french fries come from a vegetable don’t front like that shit counts as your veggies for the day. Yeah, I’m already in your fucking head.

[quote]a drunk frau in a birthday tiara, throwing gang signs and giggling about "mah bitchezzz,"

That cracked me up. I've never listened to them, but I have a very good idea what they must sound like now. And I must admit, I can't stand vocal fry.

[quote]Who IS that? Is that her wife? Those pictures are really awkward.

It's like Peggy Gravel and Griselda.

^If only! Would make Roxane so much more likable!

[quote]When some of these professional foodies tell me that they don't want to cook or write for white people or suggest that I have no business modifying a recipe because I can't devote hours to finding ingredients, they lose me.

Most of the good cooks online will tell you what you can use as a substitute, or they'll tell you that in this particular recipe, there IS no substitute, so there's no drama about it. When someone writes a recipe and doesn't specifically say that a certain ingredient is key and can't be replaced, then gets mad when someone replaces it, that's just them being a douchebag.

What gets me is that a lot of these types of people don't ever consider that many are living in either rural areas or food deserts where you can't get daikon or Mexican canela cinnamon, and that their insistence that you get this rare ingredient is actually being kind of classist.

That said, BA was often really awful with their modifications and substitutions. They were very old fashioned, it was often like reading an old 1990s cooking magazine where the most exotic ingredient was cilantro.

The other kids made fun of me because my lunches were nutritious I wanted to be like everyone else whose moms packed them cheetos, hohos and a pack of Marlboros.

[quote]Most of the good cooks online will tell you what you can use as a substitute

Hell, my friends from different backgrounds who apparently we are meant to be protecting from evil people who want to change their recipes encourage me to substitute ingredients all the time.

It's funny how all these seemingly different parties end up turning up again and again in these discussions. I was just reading up more about the Thug Kitchen controversy and who turns up, but Roxane Gay, complaining about how racist they are for both calling themselves Thug Kitchen and then for changing their name to Bad Manners. I know she likes to complain about everything under the sun, but it still seems to surprise me (and then crack me up) when her name pops up on every damn topic.

What's concerning me is that this morning I made a tiramisù for tomorrow's Christmas lunch, and I'm not Italian. And not only that but I made my own savoiardi (gluten free!) AND used frangelico instead of marsala or amaretto. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Oh, except that's Latin, and I'm a native English speaker. Oh god, I keep digging myself in deeper. My Italian friends say it isn't a problem and they love my tiramisù, but I'm not sure that I should take their word for it. If only there were a white 20-something American college girl I could ask for advice? Preferably one with blue hair.

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